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scbafreak via BoatKB.com
Guest
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 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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I am considering building a boat and in my obsession I have been looking at
designs. Here is the deal. I have been looking at the Bruce Roberts
Centennial Spray 45 or 50 and the Bombigher 38-40 or 44-40. I like the look
of the Bombigher immensley. I saw the design and loved it, I saw photos of
completed boats and love them as well. This is not to say that I don't like
the BR C-Spray. It is a beautiful boat but not exactly what I want. Close,
but not all the way the way there.
Here is the down side. I don't know if I can get any support from Bombigher,
considering that he is no longer among the living, and BR states very clearly
that you get as much support as you think you need. Bombigher has stated
that all of there designs have very extensive instructions and this fact may
make it so i wont really need support I can't get elsewhere. Also, as much
as I like the look of the designs, I don't know enough about these boats to
tell what would make a better sailboat. I plan to be a live-aboard and
eventually do extensive blue water cruising. This is all stuff I need to
learn more about over the years of planning and building but while
considering future plans in building, I am curious as to the opinions of
others about these designs.
Not many designers draw these styles of boats. Most are sleek and pointed
and not my style. I really like the old "Pirate Ship" style and I want it to
be as much along the style of old sailing ships as possible while still being
safe and capable.
I would consider another designer if they are superior in safety and support
for the builder as long as there designs are along the sort I am looking at.
--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/build/200611/1 |
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Guest
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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I would say Bombigher boats are not home buildable.
I do not think there are technically complex things, or badly unexplained
things in his designs. A plan sold over 10 000$ should cover a bunch of
details.
Just count 14000 to 18000 man hours for a shpountz 44-40. That is over 8
years FULL TIME.
Theses figures come from D Bombhiger web site www.classic-yacht-design.com
"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" <u25927@uwe> wrote in message
news:68c1be8e698d9@uwe...
| Quote: | I am considering building a boat and in my obsession I have been looking at
designs. Here is the deal. I have been looking at the Bruce Roberts
Centennial Spray 45 or 50 and the Bombigher 38-40 or 44-40. I like the
look
of the Bombigher immensley. I saw the design and loved it, I saw photos
of
completed boats and love them as well. This is not to say that I don't
like
the BR C-Spray. It is a beautiful boat but not exactly what I want.
Close,
but not all the way the way there.
Here is the down side. I don't know if I can get any support from
Bombigher,
considering that he is no longer among the living, and BR states very
clearly
that you get as much support as you think you need. Bombigher has stated
that all of there designs have very extensive instructions and this fact
may
make it so i wont really need support I can't get elsewhere. Also, as
much
as I like the look of the designs, I don't know enough about these boats
to
tell what would make a better sailboat. I plan to be a live-aboard and
eventually do extensive blue water cruising. This is all stuff I need to
learn more about over the years of planning and building but while
considering future plans in building, I am curious as to the opinions of
others about these designs.
Not many designers draw these styles of boats. Most are sleek and pointed
and not my style. I really like the old "Pirate Ship" style and I want it
to
be as much along the style of old sailing ships as possible while still
being
safe and capable.
I would consider another designer if they are superior in safety and
support
for the builder as long as there designs are along the sort I am looking
at.
--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/build/200611/1
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André Langevin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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Those Bombigher are beautiful boats for someone with a sentimental heart but
i would never go on the ocean in north atlantic neither out of the trade
wins with a boat like this. The first knock down and you loose everything
over the deck.
Please think in advance as to where you want to go. Document yourself about
the ships that made it before. Talk with people that have been in hard
weather because it could happen to you as well. And probably your design
will change thereafter.
I'm planning a circumnavigation and lot of cruising and after many months
looking at different boats and characteristics, reading Adlard Coles,
Dashews on bad weather and other things, documenting on many accident at
sea... i am still confident i could do it in a conventional boat like a
Roberts 43 but built in steel or aluminum and be equiped to be able to
sustain 2 feet of water over the deck for day long without leaking a single
drop in...
Good luck !
André
"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" <u25927@uwe> wrote in message
news:68c1be8e698d9@uwe...
| Quote: | I am considering building a boat and in my obsession I have been looking at
designs. Here is the deal. I have been looking at the Bruce Roberts
Centennial Spray 45 or 50 and the Bombigher 38-40 or 44-40. I like the
look
of the Bombigher immensley. I saw the design and loved it, I saw photos
of
completed boats and love them as well. This is not to say that I don't
like
the BR C-Spray. It is a beautiful boat but not exactly what I want.
Close,
but not all the way the way there.
Here is the down side. I don't know if I can get any support from
Bombigher,
considering that he is no longer among the living, and BR states very
clearly
that you get as much support as you think you need. Bombigher has stated
that all of there designs have very extensive instructions and this fact
may
make it so i wont really need support I can't get elsewhere. Also, as
much
as I like the look of the designs, I don't know enough about these boats
to
tell what would make a better sailboat. I plan to be a live-aboard and
eventually do extensive blue water cruising. This is all stuff I need to
learn more about over the years of planning and building but while
considering future plans in building, I am curious as to the opinions of
others about these designs.
Not many designers draw these styles of boats. Most are sleek and pointed
and not my style. I really like the old "Pirate Ship" style and I want it
to
be as much along the style of old sailing ships as possible while still
being
safe and capable.
I would consider another designer if they are superior in safety and
support
for the builder as long as there designs are along the sort I am looking
at.
--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/build/200611/1
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Glenn Ashmore
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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I don't think either would be a particularly good choice. The Bombigher
will take you 10 to 15 years to complete and I get an email at least once a
month from desperate half finished BR builders looking for either advice on
systems or some leads on unloading it. As an amateur you will need ongoing
support through to completion and you are not going to get much on either of
those.
Look for some plans that use contemporary methods that you feel you can
master fairly quickly and a designer who will work with you to completion
without charging an arm and a leg.
--
Glenn Ashmore
I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com
"scbafreak via BoatKB.com" <u25927@uwe> wrote in message
news:68c1be8e698d9@uwe...
| Quote: | I am considering building a boat and in my obsession I have been looking at
designs. Here is the deal. I have been looking at the Bruce Roberts
Centennial Spray 45 or 50 and the Bombigher 38-40 or 44-40. I like the
look
of the Bombigher immensley. I saw the design and loved it, I saw photos
of
completed boats and love them as well. This is not to say that I don't
like
the BR C-Spray. It is a beautiful boat but not exactly what I want.
Close,
but not all the way the way there.
Here is the down side. I don't know if I can get any support from
Bombigher,
considering that he is no longer among the living, and BR states very
clearly
that you get as much support as you think you need. Bombigher has stated
that all of there designs have very extensive instructions and this fact
may
make it so i wont really need support I can't get elsewhere. Also, as
much
as I like the look of the designs, I don't know enough about these boats
to
tell what would make a better sailboat. I plan to be a live-aboard and
eventually do extensive blue water cruising. This is all stuff I need to
learn more about over the years of planning and building but while
considering future plans in building, I am curious as to the opinions of
others about these designs.
Not many designers draw these styles of boats. Most are sleek and pointed
and not my style. I really like the old "Pirate Ship" style and I want it
to
be as much along the style of old sailing ships as possible while still
being
safe and capable.
I would consider another designer if they are superior in safety and
support
for the builder as long as there designs are along the sort I am looking
at.
--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/build/200611/1
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DSK
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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André Langevin wrote:
| Quote: | Those Bombigher are beautiful boats for someone with a sentimental heart but
i would never go on the ocean in north atlantic neither out of the trade
wins with a boat like this. The first knock down and you loose everything
over the deck.
|
I agree that the Bombigher designs are not the "ultimate
heavy weather" vessel but what sailboat is totally immune to
knockdowns?
| Quote: | Please think in advance as to where you want to go. Document yourself about
the ships that made it before. Talk with people that have been in hard
weather because it could happen to you as well. And probably your design
will change thereafter.
|
Agreed, and add that you should take the time to do some
hard weather sailing yourself. Nothing like being there.
| Quote: | I'm planning a circumnavigation and lot of cruising and after many months
looking at different boats and characteristics, reading Adlard Coles,
Dashews on bad weather and other things, documenting on many accident at
sea... i am still confident i could do it in a conventional boat like a
Roberts 43 but built in steel or aluminum and be equiped to be able to
sustain 2 feet of water over the deck for day long without leaking a single
drop in...
|
That's more a function of how the deck is built & how the
hardware & fittings are installed... after a few years, it
will be a matter of how well the boat is maintained.
I don't particularly like Bruce Roberts designs because they
are boxy & slow, and a lot of effort is exerted to make them
"salty looking" instead of truly seaworthy... such as having
a high LPS, etc. Two points to bear in mind when discussing
"seaworthyiness:" fatigue is the greatest enemy of the
offshore sailor, and there is no way that the design and/or
construction of *any* vessel will ever protect you from that
deadly hazard of heavy weather offshore, getting konked in
the head by a can of soup.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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André Langevin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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Indeed some BR are boxy and some others aren't. For a designer who has so
much model to choose from we need to say which one. After ready a few tales
about sailor caught in gigantic surf around NZ and Australia, most of them
wanted to slow their boat using warps, drogues and even parachute.
Unless someone is a first hand sailor trained on 60feet surfing maxi beast,
i'm not sure that it is a big difference to go 7.5 instead of 8.0 knots with
a 38 LWL (for a given 40 some feet LOA). Of course if you're stuck at 5
knots because someone doesn't know how to hoist a sail and trim it is
another problem. It all depend on the navigation program. Some people
want to go fast and i agree, other want safety.
I valuate your opinion but i don't know what boxy means. For my education,
do you think that this design is boxy or functional ? ::
http://www.langevin.biz/marinette34/next_boat.htm
André
"DSK" <dsk@dontbotherme.com> wrote in message
news:zZM3h.5191$U76.2789@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
| Quote: | André Langevin wrote:
Those Bombigher are beautiful boats for someone with a sentimental heart
but i would never go on the ocean in north atlantic neither out of the
trade wins with a boat like this. The first knock down and you loose
everything over the deck.
I agree that the Bombigher designs are not the "ultimate heavy weather"
vessel but what sailboat is totally immune to knockdowns?
Please think in advance as to where you want to go. Document yourself
about the ships that made it before. Talk with people that have been in
hard weather because it could happen to you as well. And probably your
design will change thereafter.
Agreed, and add that you should take the time to do some hard weather
sailing yourself. Nothing like being there.
I'm planning a circumnavigation and lot of cruising and after many months
looking at different boats and characteristics, reading Adlard Coles,
Dashews on bad weather and other things, documenting on many accident at
sea... i am still confident i could do it in a conventional boat like
a Roberts 43 but built in steel or aluminum and be equiped to be able to
sustain 2 feet of water over the deck for day long without leaking a
single drop in...
That's more a function of how the deck is built & how the hardware &
fittings are installed... after a few years, it will be a matter of how
well the boat is maintained.
I don't particularly like Bruce Roberts designs because they are boxy &
slow, and a lot of effort is exerted to make them "salty looking" instead
of truly seaworthy... such as having a high LPS, etc. Two points to bear
in mind when discussing "seaworthyiness:" fatigue is the greatest enemy of
the offshore sailor, and there is no way that the design and/or
construction of *any* vessel will ever protect you from that deadly hazard
of heavy weather offshore, getting konked in the head by a can of soup.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
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scbafreak via BoatKB.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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Glenn Ashmore wrote:
| Quote: | Well one sure piece of advice. NEVER move into it before it is finished. I
made that mistake building my house. When you have to go to it, work on it
and then go home, it is a project. When you are living in it you HAVE to
work on it and it becomes a chore. Projects are a lot more fun than chores.
|
Good tip. Also since it is a boat it will need a lot of maintanence and
doing that while building may be a bit overwhelming.
--
Message posted via BoatKB.com
http://www.boatkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/build/200611/1 |
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Evan Gatehouse2
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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scbafreak via BoatKB.com wrote:
| Quote: | I have two options. Option one is two go with the 42' boat with a build time
of 10,000 to 12,000 hours rather than the 49' with a build time of 14,000 to
18,000 hours. Option two is to build as much as is needed for it to be
|
I'm going to go on for a bit. Please excuse the ramble.
1) The average person in the US, if they work full time @ 40
hrs/week, less some stat holidays, etc. is working 2000 hours a year.
So if you work on the 49' boat full time, 5 days a week, #2 will
take at least 9 years of solid labour. That's way too long. Both are
too long IMO. First time builders usually hit or exceed the longer
range of construction time estimates by the way.
2) Don't move into a project that is underway. Your productivity
will go way down when you have to unstick the cereal box from the
freshly varnished cabinetry.
4) Buy a boat instead. It's far more rational.
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/static/boattype_schooner_1.html
Here's a bunch. Some maybe in your price range.
5) I'm currently on a rebuilding project of a 40' catamaran. Much
smaller project than building a whole boat, though still significant.
I probably only have 700 hours (bit of a WAG) into it so far, because
I have a family and a young daughter who I want to spend time with
just as much as I want to build the boat. Timelime so far:
Winter/Spring 2005 - prefabricating composite cabin panels.
Summer 2005 - haulout for 1 month. Chainsaw out old middle
bridgedeck. De-step mast, new carbon fiber mast beam, install new
diesel, new bridgedeck cabin sole, cockpit sole. Cabin panels
screwed/some glassed into position. Mast restepped and back in the
water. Lots of help from friends that month
Summer 2005 - taping external seams/fairing
Fall 2005 - taping internal seams/fairing/painting inside cabin
Winter 2005/6 - fabricate bridgedeck cabin furniture
Spring 2006 - carbon fiber chainplates, install windows & hatches
Summer 2006 - fairing, fairing, more fairing
Fall 2006 - starting to paint exterior
Winter 2006/7 - new galley cabinets, install stove, sinks, cabinetry
[do you call it cabinetry if it's made of carbon fiber/Nomex?]
- redo electrical system
Spring 2007 - install deck hardware, finish painting, finish building
dinghy
Summer 2007 - go sailing for a change
Fall 2007 - install some systems (hot water heater, cabin heater,
pressure water, watermaker)
Winter 2007/8 - fabricate and install carbon fiber radar arch/dinghy
davits/solar panel stuff
Spring 2008 - buy the electronics, install, more lockers in cabins
etc. etc. etc.
Summer 2008 - just leave 'cause it will never be finished anyway :)
You may begin to get the idea of how long this sort of project will
take if you are not working on it full time. Progress can be measured
in decades and there are many busted dreams along the way.
I'm a naval architect/marine engineer so designing the cabin structure
and dealing with mechanical systems is simple to me. It's also not my
first boat. We have a clear vision of the steps needed, the timeline
and budget required, and the goal (leaving for offshore cruising
summer 2008). Good luck with your dream.
My boatbuilding blog: www.maiaaboard.blogspot.com
Evan Gatehouse |
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max camirand
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Bombigher vs. Bruce Roberts |
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If you like the idea of building in steel, Thomas Colvin has some nice
designs. I just finished reading his two-part book, "Steel
Boatbuilding", and while I've never worked with steel outside of
welding class, his instructions seem clear and straightforward. The
books use a "pinky schooner" design as an example. I'm no schooner
expert, but it's a handsome 42-footer, to my eye. His website is:
http://www.thomasecolvin.com/
He's run his own yard and build his own designs, so that's some
guarantee that he thought of the builder when he drew it.
Best of luck on your project.
-Maxime Camirand
<snip>
| Quote: | P.S. If anyone out there has any recommendations about a designer that
designs "classic" style boats, let me know. While fast is nice it isn't the
most important thing to me. I plan to live on this boat and I would like to
come home every day and be in awe of my own boat moreso than any other boat
in the marina. I guess I have a sentimental heart after all.
--
Message posted via http://www.boatkb.com |
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