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RayV
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: zoned hot water system problem |
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My BIL called me over to help him fix a leaking circulator pump on his
system which was an easy swap and fixed the leak. But he still has a
big problem with his system, here's the current setup:
Boiler in basement
Split level house with all zone loops higher than basement
Three zones - all thermostats working properly
Circulator pump on the cold/return side of boiler mounted just above
boiler inlet
comes on with furnace (zone independent)
Flo-control valve on the hot/supply side of boiler mounted near ceiling
Air separater right after main flo-control valve with bladder expansion
tank
Three additional zone circulator pumps connected to the thermostat
relays
Three zone flo-control valves, one right after each zone pump
The problem is that whenever any zone calls for heat there is flow thru
all three zones. I verified that each of the zone pumps are working
indepently and correctly. He told me that the system has always
operated this way and he just sets the thermostat on the upper level to
50 so it never kicks on because he always gets heat up there. On the
zone I changed the pump the flo-control valve stopped the water from
coming out when I pulled the pump. I'm assuming the other two
flo-control zone valves are also properly preventing back flow. But
the problem is they are are always allowing hot water to flow forward
even if the pump for that zone is off. There are no zone valves on any
of the zones, only the flo-contral valves. The zone pumps, flo-control
valves and thermostats appear to be add-ons to the original system.
Does this system need a circulator pump for each zone?
Should there be zone valves installed for each zone? |
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RayV
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: zoned hot water system problem |
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RBM (remove this) wrote:
| Quote: | Like Ed said, you either use circulators and flow controls or circulators
with zone valves and no flow controls. When you buy the boiler, it comes
with one circulator mounted on it, if you need more zones, you usually
remove that one and build or buy a manifold and mount them all together. So
you have a total of 4 zones, and I'm assuming 4 thermostats and relays. What
concerns me is what is controlling the boiler? Ed mentions an aquastat
maintaining his boiler temperature, some boilers maintain temperature and
some are wired for cold start, which means each zone control would turn on
its circulator and fire the boiler as well. What do you have for domestic
hot water?
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Separate water heater.
| Quote: | If it's a coil built into the boiler, you will have a triple
aquastat relay mounted on the boiler to maintain temperature, but if not,
you may have issues with the original circulator becoming energized when any
of the others come on.
This is exactly what is happening, every time an individual zone calls |
for heat the 'main' circulator pump kicks on with the boiler as well as
the zone pump. The pressure from the main circulator is enough to lift
the flo-control valves off their seats in every zone.
The biggest problem is my BIL makes Tim 'the tool man' Taylor look like
Tommy Silva. So I can't try things like disconnect the main circulator
and let it run for a few days. I told him several times after I
changed the zone pump and refilled the system to check the pressure a
couple times a day for a few days. He still hasn't checked it (he
forgot).
I'm thinking there are three options:
1-Have him buy three zone valves and replace the flo-control valves
with zone valves and leave everything else alone.
2-Put in the zone valves and disconnect the three zone pumps to see if
the single circulator pump can move enough water. If it works then
remove the zone circulators in the spring.
3-Tell him to call in a heating guy who will sell him some fancy
interconnected thermostats with ambient temperature probes along with
with cyclonic self-equalizing pumps. Oh yeah and a new boiler since
the old one isn't up to the task of properly heating the house
efficiently. |
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RayV
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: zoned hot water system problem |
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paul.flansb...@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Ray, Did you check to make sure that the top nut of the check valve
was closed tight? Most times people forget to tighten this nut. If
not tight, it will allow for the hot water to enter into the other zone
causing ghost heating.
Paul
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Yes. After I replaced the pump I fully opened (bypassed) the
flo-control valves and ran all of the circulator pumps to hopefully
flush any dirt from the seats and get the air moving. Then I closed
all of the flo-control valves. They were all closed when I got there
and hadn't been touched in years if ever. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: zoned hot water system problem |
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RayV wrote:
| Quote: | RBM (remove this) wrote:
Like Ed said, you either use circulators and flow controls or circulators
with zone valves and no flow controls. When you buy the boiler, it comes
with one circulator mounted on it, if you need more zones, you usually
remove that one and build or buy a manifold and mount them all together. So
you have a total of 4 zones, and I'm assuming 4 thermostats and relays. What
concerns me is what is controlling the boiler? Ed mentions an aquastat
maintaining his boiler temperature, some boilers maintain temperature and
some are wired for cold start, which means each zone control would turn on
its circulator and fire the boiler as well. What do you have for domestic
hot water?
Separate water heater.
If it's a coil built into the boiler, you will have a triple
aquastat relay mounted on the boiler to maintain temperature, but if not,
you may have issues with the original circulator becoming energized when any
of the others come on.
This is exactly what is happening, every time an individual zone calls
for heat the 'main' circulator pump kicks on with the boiler as well as
the zone pump. The pressure from the main circulator is enough to lift
the flo-control valves off their seats in every zone.
The biggest problem is my BIL makes Tim 'the tool man' Taylor look like
Tommy Silva. So I can't try things like disconnect the main circulator
and let it run for a few days. I told him several times after I
changed the zone pump and refilled the system to check the pressure a
couple times a day for a few days. He still hasn't checked it (he
forgot).
I'm thinking there are three options:
1-Have him buy three zone valves and replace the flo-control valves
with zone valves and leave everything else alone.
2-Put in the zone valves and disconnect the three zone pumps to see if
the single circulator pump can move enough water. If it works then
remove the zone circulators in the spring.
3-Tell him to call in a heating guy who will sell him some fancy
interconnected thermostats with ambient temperature probes along with
with cyclonic self-equalizing pumps. Oh yeah and a new boiler since
the old one isn't up to the task of properly heating the house
efficiently.
|
Ray, Did you check to make sure that the top nut of the check valve
was closed tight? Most times people forget to tighten this nut. If
not tight, it will allow for the hot water to enter into the other zone
causing ghost heating.
Paul |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: zoned hot water system problem |
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RayV wrote:
| Quote: | My BIL called me over to help him fix a leaking circulator pump on his
system which was an easy swap and fixed the leak. But he still has a
big problem with his system, here's the current setup:
Boiler in basement
Split level house with all zone loops higher than basement
Three zones - all thermostats working properly
Circulator pump on the cold/return side of boiler mounted just above
boiler inlet
comes on with furnace (zone independent)
Flo-control valve on the hot/supply side of boiler mounted near ceiling
Air separater right after main flo-control valve with bladder expansion
tank
Three additional zone circulator pumps connected to the thermostat
relays
Three zone flo-control valves, one right after each zone pump
The problem is that whenever any zone calls for heat there is flow thru
all three zones. I verified that each of the zone pumps are working
indepently and correctly. He told me that the system has always
operated this way and he just sets the thermostat on the upper level to
50 so it never kicks on because he always gets heat up there. On the
zone I changed the pump the flo-control valve stopped the water from
coming out when I pulled the pump. I'm assuming the other two
flo-control zone valves are also properly preventing back flow. But
the problem is they are are always allowing hot water to flow forward
even if the pump for that zone is off. There are no zone valves on any
of the zones, only the flo-contral valves. The zone pumps, flo-control
valves and thermostats appear to be add-ons to the original system.
Does this system need a circulator pump for each zone?
Should there be zone valves installed for each zone?
|
RayV, After all of the suggestions made and what you have tried do you
have a fix? I'm curious to what fixed this problem and I'm sure the
others in the group would like to hear what the solution was.
-paul |
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