OT - What's with Liberals?

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Gus
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: OT - What's with Liberals?

What is it about liberals on the far left, claiming to be tolerant but being intolerant of opposing views? Instead of discussing things, they resort to name-calling, ridicule, and pompous arrogance. People with differing ideas from theirs are labeled as stupid, backward, superstitious, etc. It almost looks like those who are always whining about free speech, can't allow it. Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Of course, everyone is that way to some extent but liberals have perfected it. Has anyone noticed that it is a lot more dangerous to have a Bush sticker on your car or house than to have a Kerry sticker? If you have the Bush sticker, you're much more likely to have your car damaged by some liberal in a fit of rage. Liberals are angry. They hate the government, our society, and the church. Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be happy, like Cuba maybe? GW

John Kunkel
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156440645.002236.210470@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

Quote:

What is it about liberals on the far left, claiming to be tolerant but
being intolerant of opposing views? Instead of discussing things, they
resort to name-calling, ridicule, and pompous arrogance.

I find that to be true of both Liberals and Conservatives on this forum.

Quote:

Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed
to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions.

That view is contradictory, anyone who aligns themselves with either the
left or right can't, by definition, be open-minded.

arachnid
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:30:45 -0700, Gus wrote:

Quote:

Speaking of calling people names... does anyone else notice a certain
irony here? embarrassment

)

F. George McDuffee
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

On 24 Aug 2006 10:30:45 -0700, "Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com>
wrote:
<snip>

Quote:

Liberals are angry. They hate the government, our society, and the
church. Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be
happy, like Cuba maybe?
snip

With the improvements in technology such as computerized touch
screen voting, the reactionaries/neocons [AKA RINOs] are now able
to cheat better than the Liberals [AKA DINOs].

No one likes to admit that the other guy cheated better than they
did, as in "Your cheatin' -- them ain't the cards I dealt you."

God help the People and save the Republic of the United States.

tonyp
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

"John Kunkel" <nobody@nowhere.net> wrote

Quote:

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote
Liberals view themselves as "open-minded"
but are themselves closed to possibilities
that don't fit into their preconceived notions.

That view is contradictory, anyone who aligns themselves
with either the left or right can't, by definition, be open-minded.

We all believe our own opinions -- otherwise we'd have different opinions.

What do you mean by "align", though? I can't speak for conservatives, but I
can speak for at least one liberal, and I can say this: I don't ask myself
whether a particular opinion is "liberal" or "conservative" and decide on
_that_ basis whether to adopt it or oppose it. I ask myself whether the
opinion makes sense. I bet that conservatives do the same. How do you go
about forming _your_ opinions?

-- TP

Hawke
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156440645.002236.210470@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

Quote:

First off, you're generalizing. You probably have heard a few liberals, who
have far left attitudes, calling people stupid, backward, etc. and made the
mistake of thinking that everyone on the left is like that, they're not. It
would be like thinking all conservatives are just like Sean Hannity. They
are not either but conservatives, as a rule, are far more in step with the
views of their leaders than Democrats are. That is a fact, not my opinion.

Quote:

Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed
to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Of
course, everyone is that way to some extent but liberals have perfected
it.

As a general rule liberals are more open minded than conservatives. It's
kind of like what is the definition of each group. Democrats are more
accepting of things than conservatives are. Believe me, you will get a lot
more acceptance of different ideas from a group of liberals than you will a
group of conservatives. You seem to believe that because some liberals are
intolerant that the majority are, which is not the case. You also seem not
to know that there is a lot of truth in stereotypes. Take the stereotype of
a southerner. Sure, all southerners aren't ignorant, gun toting, tobacco
chewing, red neck, Nascar attending, pickup driving, drunken, bigots but
enough of them are for the stereotype to have some validity. Some liberals
may make the mistake of believing the stereotypical view of religious right
wing conservatives but most know better than that. But as you have shown,
conservatives make the same mistake of believing the stereotype of liberals
too.

Quote:

Has anyone noticed that it is a lot more dangerous to have a Bush
sticker on your car or house than to have a Kerry sticker? If you have
the Bush sticker, you're much more likely to have your car damaged by
some liberal in a fit of rage.

Ask yourself why people are so mad about Bush? Bush is a divider not a
uniter. He's divided this country with his right wing policies. He has made
things worse than when he took over and a lot of people blame him, and
rightly so. Believe me, if Bush had done a great job in office and had
worked with the other side to accomplish positive things it would be a lot
different. Instead he's had a highway or my way philosophy from the get go.
He did his sowing and now he's reaping that harvest. A lot of us are very
mad at what he's done. Remember how mad you were when Clinton was in office.
It's like that only worse because most of us are not doing better than we
were six years ago.

Quote:

Liberals are angry. They hate the government, our society, and the
church. Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be
happy, like Cuba maybe?

You're right, they're angry, but you're wrong from there on. It's not the
"government" or "society" they are mad at. It's Bush, and the republicans
they are mad at. Can't blame them, things are not going well and those are
the folks driving the car. We don't hate the government we hate what Bush
has done with it. Oh, none of us is going anywhere either. When Bush and the
republicans are defeated and Democrats are back in power I'm sure I won't
hear you and your fellows being hateful or angry at what they do, will you?
You'll be quiet as a church mouse when the Democrats are in charge again,
right? Come off it, we already saw just how you guys acted when the last
Democrat was president. You were a lot worse than the Democrats are now and
the country was in far better shape. So spare us the hypocrisy.

Hawke

megpa
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's
just that they know so much that isn't so."

- Ronald Reagan

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156440645.002236.210470@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

Quote:

What is it about liberals on the far left, claiming to be tolerant but
being intolerant of opposing views? Instead of discussing things, they
resort to name-calling, ridicule, and pompous arrogance. People with
differing ideas from theirs are labeled as stupid, backward,
superstitious, etc. It almost looks like those who are always whining
about free speech, can't allow it.

Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed
to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Of
course, everyone is that way to some extent but liberals have perfected
it.

Has anyone noticed that it is a lot more dangerous to have a Bush
sticker on your car or house than to have a Kerry sticker? If you have
the Bush sticker, you're much more likely to have your car damaged by
some liberal in a fit of rage.

Liberals are angry. They hate the government, our society, and the
church. Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be
happy, like Cuba maybe?

GW

Stuart Wheaton
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:02 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

Gus wrote:

Quote:

What is it about liberals on the far left,

They are no different from neo-cons on the far right,

Quote:

claiming to be tolerant but
being intolerant of opposing views?

You mean like claiming "Fair and Balanced", when one is anything but?

Quote:

Instead of discussing things, they
resort to name-calling, ridicule, and pompous arrogance.

Have you ever listened to Limbaugh?

Quote:

People with
differing ideas from theirs are labeled as stupid, backward,
superstitious, etc.

Is that different from calling people Feminazis, Islamofascists,
eco-freaks, enviroweenies, etc?

Quote:

It almost looks like those who are always whining
about free speech, can't allow it.

Have liberals tried to keep Limbaugh from broadcasting? Neo-cons tried
to keep Ed Schultz off the AFRN.

Quote:

Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed
to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions.

Have you noticed Gunner changing his mind when shown possibilities that
don't fit into his preconceived notions?

Quote:

Of course, everyone is that way to some extent but liberals have perfected
it.

Have you considered that this might be a preconceived notion of yours?

Quote:

Has anyone noticed that it is a lot more dangerous to have a Bush
sticker on your car or house than to have a Kerry sticker?

During the last election, somebody unknown to me put a Bush sticker on
my truck even though there was a Kerry sticker already there.

Quote:

If you have
the Bush sticker, you're much more likely to have your car damaged by
some liberal in a fit of rage.

Are you sure it isn't damaged by the mother of a son sent to die for oil
in an ill-conceived war run by bumbling idiots who refuse to admit that
things are a mess over there?

Quote:

Liberals are angry.

First totally correct statement in your post.

Quote:

They hate the government, our society, and the
church.

They are angry with the current administration because it has lied to
them and the GOP controlled congress has abdicated the responsibility of
oversight, They love our society but would like all members to share
equally in it, they love the church, all churches and all religions
until they try to force their religion on people who have chosen another
path.

Quote:

Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be
happy, like Cuba maybe?

What would make a Neo-con think that Cuba would be a liberal's idea of
paradise? There is no free speech there, the rights of minorities are
not respected, and the government is in the hands of a few ideologues,
just like here at home.

Now Sweden or the Netherlands...Freewheeling multi-party democracy,
Universal health care, equality to ALL members of society, Drug use
viewed as a medical problem not a criminal one, and lots of SEXY women!
That might be tempting. But speaking for myself, I want to make
America a better place to live, I don't think the Neo-cons and the
Christian Conservatives have irreversibly screwed it up yet, and so I
will just try to guide it in the right direction at every election and
with every response to posts with unwarranted assumptions about freedom.

Quote:

Andrew VK3BFA
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:05 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

Gus wrote:

Quote:

etc.

Its simple - extreme nutters of either persuasion rely on abuse to
prove their point. No difference between left or right.

Back in "the old days" in Ham radio, the 3 banned topics were sex,
politics, religion. Leave them out, chances are you can have a decent
conversation with just about anyone....

ANdrew VK3BFA.

arachnid
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:29:32 -0700, Hawke wrote:

Quote:

We don't hate the government we hate what Bush has done with it.

I always thought it was the conservatives who hated the government?

Joseph Gwinn
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

In article <nxrHg.43$Zm1.42@dukeread02>, "megpa" <megpa@cox.net> wrote:

Quote:

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's
just that they know so much that isn't so."

- Ronald Reagan

I think that's an old Tom Dooley line from long before anybody heard of
Ronnie, but Tom Dooley aimed it at everybody, not just liberals. Do you
have a cite?

Joe Gwinn

Tom Gardner
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

"Hawke" <desmithe@c-zone.net> wrote in message
news:12esh2h4aqn7jac@corp.supernews.com...

Quote:

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156440645.002236.210470@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
What is it about liberals on the far left, claiming to be tolerant but
being intolerant of opposing views? Instead of discussing things, they
resort to name-calling, ridicule, and pompous arrogance. People with
differing ideas from theirs are labeled as stupid, backward,
superstitious, etc. It almost looks like those who are always whining
about free speech, can't allow it.

First off, you're generalizing. You probably have heard a few liberals,
who
have far left attitudes, calling people stupid, backward, etc. and made
the
mistake of thinking that everyone on the left is like that, they're not.
It
would be like thinking all conservatives are just like Sean Hannity. They
are not either but conservatives, as a rule, are far more in step with the
views of their leaders than Democrats are. That is a fact, not my opinion.

Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed
to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Of
course, everyone is that way to some extent but liberals have perfected
it.

As a general rule liberals are more open minded than conservatives. It's
kind of like what is the definition of each group. Democrats are more
accepting of things than conservatives are. Believe me, you will get a lot
more acceptance of different ideas from a group of liberals than you will
a
group of conservatives. You seem to believe that because some liberals are
intolerant that the majority are, which is not the case. You also seem not
to know that there is a lot of truth in stereotypes. Take the stereotype
of
a southerner. Sure, all southerners aren't ignorant, gun toting, tobacco
chewing, red neck, Nascar attending, pickup driving, drunken, bigots but
enough of them are for the stereotype to have some validity. Some liberals
may make the mistake of believing the stereotypical view of religious
right
wing conservatives but most know better than that. But as you have shown,
conservatives make the same mistake of believing the stereotype of
liberals
too.

Has anyone noticed that it is a lot more dangerous to have a Bush
sticker on your car or house than to have a Kerry sticker? If you have
the Bush sticker, you're much more likely to have your car damaged by
some liberal in a fit of rage.

Ask yourself why people are so mad about Bush? Bush is a divider not a
uniter. He's divided this country with his right wing policies. He has
made
things worse than when he took over and a lot of people blame him, and
rightly so. Believe me, if Bush had done a great job in office and had
worked with the other side to accomplish positive things it would be a lot
different. Instead he's had a highway or my way philosophy from the get
go.
He did his sowing and now he's reaping that harvest. A lot of us are very
mad at what he's done. Remember how mad you were when Clinton was in
office.
It's like that only worse because most of us are not doing better than we
were six years ago.

Liberals are angry. They hate the government, our society, and the
church. Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be
happy, like Cuba maybe?

You're right, they're angry, but you're wrong from there on. It's not the
"government" or "society" they are mad at. It's Bush, and the republicans
they are mad at. Can't blame them, things are not going well and those are
the folks driving the car. We don't hate the government we hate what Bush
has done with it. Oh, none of us is going anywhere either. When Bush and
the
republicans are defeated and Democrats are back in power I'm sure I won't
hear you and your fellows being hateful or angry at what they do, will
you?
You'll be quiet as a church mouse when the Democrats are in charge again,
right? Come off it, we already saw just how you guys acted when the last
Democrat was president. You were a lot worse than the Democrats are now
and
the country was in far better shape. So spare us the hypocrisy.

Hawke

Wow! This is the least venomous post you have typed! Are you OK??? The
thing isn't Democrats or Republicans or liberals or neocons, it's about
right and wrong and face it, the US government hasn't done what's right for
many, many presidents. The elephant in the kitchen is this whole system is
flawed and nobody has any idea how to really fix it. Too many resources are
wasted and too much "wealth" is stolen and redistributed rather than
created. Less than 10% of the US population creates "wealth" the other 90%
redistribute it. That may be an arguable statement as service industries
are considered and "wealth" is being redefined. It's the waste that gets me
and perceived costs verses real costs.

Gus
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

Hawke wrote:

Quote:

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156440645.002236.210470@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
What is it about liberals on the far left, claiming to be tolerant but
being intolerant of opposing views? Instead of discussing things, they
resort to name-calling, ridicule, and pompous arrogance. People with
differing ideas from theirs are labeled as stupid, backward,
superstitious, etc. It almost looks like those who are always whining
about free speech, can't allow it.

First off, you're generalizing. You probably have heard a few liberals, who
have far left attitudes, calling people stupid, backward, etc. and made the
mistake of thinking that everyone on the left is like that, they're not. It
would be like thinking all conservatives are just like Sean Hannity. They
are not either but conservatives, as a rule, are far more in step with the
views of their leaders than Democrats are. That is a fact, not my opinion.

Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed
to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Of
course, everyone is that way to some extent but liberals have perfected
it.

As a general rule liberals are more open minded than conservatives. It's
kind of like what is the definition of each group. Democrats are more
accepting of things than conservatives are. Believe me, you will get a lot
more acceptance of different ideas from a group of liberals than you will a
group of conservatives. You seem to believe that because some liberals are
intolerant that the majority are, which is not the case. You also seem not
to know that there is a lot of truth in stereotypes. Take the stereotype of
a southerner. Sure, all southerners aren't ignorant, gun toting, tobacco
chewing, red neck, Nascar attending, pickup driving, drunken, bigots but
enough of them are for the stereotype to have some validity. Some liberals
may make the mistake of believing the stereotypical view of religious right
wing conservatives but most know better than that. But as you have shown,
conservatives make the same mistake of believing the stereotype of liberals
too.

Has anyone noticed that it is a lot more dangerous to have a Bush
sticker on your car or house than to have a Kerry sticker? If you have
the Bush sticker, you're much more likely to have your car damaged by
some liberal in a fit of rage.

Ask yourself why people are so mad about Bush? Bush is a divider not a
uniter. He's divided this country with his right wing policies. He has made
things worse than when he took over and a lot of people blame him, and
rightly so. Believe me, if Bush had done a great job in office and had
worked with the other side to accomplish positive things it would be a lot
different. Instead he's had a highway or my way philosophy from the get go.
He did his sowing and now he's reaping that harvest. A lot of us are very
mad at what he's done. Remember how mad you were when Clinton was in office.
It's like that only worse because most of us are not doing better than we
were six years ago.

Liberals are angry. They hate the government, our society, and the
church. Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be
happy, like Cuba maybe?

You're right, they're angry, but you're wrong from there on. It's not the
"government" or "society" they are mad at. It's Bush, and the republicans
they are mad at. Can't blame them, things are not going well and those are
the folks driving the car. We don't hate the government we hate what Bush
has done with it. Oh, none of us is going anywhere either. When Bush and the
republicans are defeated and Democrats are back in power I'm sure I won't
hear you and your fellows being hateful or angry at what they do, will you?
You'll be quiet as a church mouse when the Democrats are in charge again,
right? Come off it, we already saw just how you guys acted when the last
Democrat was president. You were a lot worse than the Democrats are now and
the country was in far better shape. So spare us the hypocrisy.

Hawke

Thanks for your reply. I just wanted to point out that my first
sentence pointed to liberals on the "far left". You raise some good
points overall but I wasn't talking about the average liberal but more
about the extremists. I haven't noticed far right-wingers going to
liberal functions and throwing pies at the speakers even when Bill
Clinton was in charge. It just seems to me that the far left is way
more angry and abusive than the far right has ever been.

GW

Hawke
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156476340.663154.261720@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Quote:

Hawke wrote:
"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156440645.002236.210470@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
What is it about liberals on the far left, claiming to be tolerant but
being intolerant of opposing views? Instead of discussing things, they
resort to name-calling, ridicule, and pompous arrogance. People with
differing ideas from theirs are labeled as stupid, backward,
superstitious, etc. It almost looks like those who are always whining
about free speech, can't allow it.

First off, you're generalizing. You probably have heard a few liberals,
who
have far left attitudes, calling people stupid, backward, etc. and made
the
mistake of thinking that everyone on the left is like that, they're not.
It
would be like thinking all conservatives are just like Sean Hannity.
They
are not either but conservatives, as a rule, are far more in step with
the
views of their leaders than Democrats are. That is a fact, not my
opinion.

Liberals view themselves as "open-minded" but are themselves closed
to possibilities that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Of
course, everyone is that way to some extent but liberals have
perfected
it.

As a general rule liberals are more open minded than conservatives. It's
kind of like what is the definition of each group. Democrats are more
accepting of things than conservatives are. Believe me, you will get a
lot
more acceptance of different ideas from a group of liberals than you
will a
group of conservatives. You seem to believe that because some liberals
are
intolerant that the majority are, which is not the case. You also seem
not
to know that there is a lot of truth in stereotypes. Take the stereotype
of
a southerner. Sure, all southerners aren't ignorant, gun toting, tobacco
chewing, red neck, Nascar attending, pickup driving, drunken, bigots but
enough of them are for the stereotype to have some validity. Some
liberals
may make the mistake of believing the stereotypical view of religious
right
wing conservatives but most know better than that. But as you have
shown,
conservatives make the same mistake of believing the stereotype of
liberals
too.

Has anyone noticed that it is a lot more dangerous to have a Bush
sticker on your car or house than to have a Kerry sticker? If you
have
the Bush sticker, you're much more likely to have your car damaged by
some liberal in a fit of rage.

Ask yourself why people are so mad about Bush? Bush is a divider not a
uniter. He's divided this country with his right wing policies. He has
made
things worse than when he took over and a lot of people blame him, and
rightly so. Believe me, if Bush had done a great job in office and had
worked with the other side to accomplish positive things it would be a
lot
different. Instead he's had a highway or my way philosophy from the get
go.
He did his sowing and now he's reaping that harvest. A lot of us are
very
mad at what he's done. Remember how mad you were when Clinton was in
office.
It's like that only worse because most of us are not doing better than
we
were six years ago.

Liberals are angry. They hate the government, our society, and the
church. Geez, if it's so bad why not go to some place you'll be
happy, like Cuba maybe?

You're right, they're angry, but you're wrong from there on. It's not
the
"government" or "society" they are mad at. It's Bush, and the
republicans
they are mad at. Can't blame them, things are not going well and those
are
the folks driving the car. We don't hate the government we hate what
Bush
has done with it. Oh, none of us is going anywhere either. When Bush and
the
republicans are defeated and Democrats are back in power I'm sure I
won't
hear you and your fellows being hateful or angry at what they do, will
you?
You'll be quiet as a church mouse when the Democrats are in charge
again,
right? Come off it, we already saw just how you guys acted when the last
Democrat was president. You were a lot worse than the Democrats are now
and
the country was in far better shape. So spare us the hypocrisy.

Hawke

Thanks for your reply. I just wanted to point out that my first
sentence pointed to liberals on the "far left". You raise some good
points overall but I wasn't talking about the average liberal but more
about the extremists. I haven't noticed far right-wingers going to
liberal functions and throwing pies at the speakers even when Bill
Clinton was in charge. It just seems to me that the far left is way
more angry and abusive than the far right has ever been.

GW

Once you start talking about the "far" left or right you are talking about a
bunch of kooks. The truth is what they think doesn't really matter because
their views are so far from the mainstream. But I think our problems are not
really coming from the extremes of the parties. There is a real divide in
the country to where it's like there are two different cultures. One is kind
of backward looking and old fashioned. They like things the way the used to
be and don't like things changing too fast or at all. They want to keep
things like morality, religion, love of country, and traditions in place the
way they always have been. Those are conservatives.

Then you have the forward looking, modern, progressive types that pretty
much want to jettison all the old ways and move to the future. Those are
liberals. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of common ground between
these positions. What we have seen since Bush took over is the conservative
ways have been imposed on everyone else. He has not tried to accept the
views of the liberals or to work with them. His attitude has been, we won so
we're doing things our way and if you don't like it too bad. This has caused
a lot of hard feelings and has divided the sides even more. Add to that the
poor job Bush has done leading the country and you see why there is so much
animosity out there. Until we can find a president who can find a middle
ground and can get both sides to work as a team the future for the country
is not going to be a good one. What we're doing now is clearly not working

Hawke

Tim Wescott
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: Re: OT - What's with Liberals?

Hawke wrote:

Quote:

"Gus" <sven-ole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
-- snip --

Thanks for your reply. I just wanted to point out that my first
sentence pointed to liberals on the "far left". You raise some good
points overall but I wasn't talking about the average liberal but more
about the extremists. I haven't noticed far right-wingers going to
liberal functions and throwing pies at the speakers even when Bill
Clinton was in charge. It just seems to me that the far left is way
more angry and abusive than the far right has ever been.

GW

Once you start talking about the "far" left or right you are talking about a
bunch of kooks. The truth is what they think doesn't really matter because
their views are so far from the mainstream. But I think our problems are not
really coming from the extremes of the parties. There is a real divide in
the country to where it's like there are two different cultures. One is kind
of backward looking and old fashioned. They like things the way the used to
be and don't like things changing too fast or at all. They want to keep
things like morality, religion, love of country, and traditions in place the
way they always have been. Those are conservatives.

Oh, I hate getting into these discussions, because my blood pressure

gets so high. Ah, well, into the valley of death rode the 600...

<RANT>

You're leaving out the folks who want to go back to a past that never
existed -- the folks who think that the '50's were just like '50's TV.
They want Leave It to Beaver land, without admitting that in the _real_
'50's rivers were catching on fire and priests were raping alter boys.

Unfortunately these are the folks who are running the current
"conservative" movement -- and the quote marks are intentional.

Quote:

Then you have the forward looking, modern, progressive types that pretty
much want to jettison all the old ways and move to the future. Those are
liberals.

Once again, you're leaving out the over-progressive types who seem to be
running the "liberal" movement -- like the unions who would rather see a
plant move to Malaysia rather than expand a job description, or the
welfare advocates who don't want to 'diminish someone's dignity' by
asking them to actually _work_ if they can.

You'll say that these are the kooks -- but I say that the kooks are
running the show on both sides.

Quote:

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of common ground between
these positions.

Now this I agree with.

Quote:

What we have seen since Bush took over is the conservative
ways have been imposed on everyone else. He has not tried to accept the
views of the liberals or to work with them. His attitude has been, we won so
we're doing things our way and if you don't like it too bad.

I don't think this is because he's conservative -- I just think he's an
incompetent boob. Didn't this guy ever get into bar fights when he was
a drunkard? Doesn't he know that you don't go after that crazy guy in
the corner unless you have _lots_ of friends on your side? He went into
Iraq with all of his generals telling him he didn't have enough troops
-- so does he institute a draft, or figure out another way? No! He
believes his civilian buddy Rumsfeld, and he goes out and gets himself
some generals who'll say whatever it takes to get their noses brown!
And to top that, he defines victory as democracy in Iraq -- so Bin
Laden's Ultimate Faith-Based Initiative knows exactly what to do to give
us a black eye!

Quote:

This has caused
a lot of hard feelings and has divided the sides even more. Add to that the
poor job Bush has done leading the country and you see why there is so much
animosity out there.

The funny thing is, I think his heart is in the right place. Look at
what he wants to accomplish, and what he values. He wants to fix the
mistakes we've been making in the Arab world since the year 1500 and
establish democracy. His faith-based initiatives were, IMOH, an attempt
to realize his dad's 1000 points of light, and if you actually _could_
get people pulling together as volunteers then a great deal of big
government would just go away*. He's working hard, swimming upstream in
the middle of his own supporters, on immigration reform. The guy
definitely wants the right things, and in the right way.

Back in '00 when he was running around talking about 'compassionate
conservatism' I paid attention to what he was saying -- but just long
enough to realize that while he spouts all the right phrases, he doesn't
really have a clue. In Bill Clinton we had the "tried it but didn't
inhale", with W we had "personally against the death penalty, but my
hands were tied". Come on. If he were _really_ against the death
penalty he could have done something about it. He's certainly shown
that a little thing like the US constitution won't hold him back from
seizing the power he thinks that he (and, apparently, Hillary) should
have. So we conclude that he was lying, and about something more
important that what he'd smoked 20 years before.

Quote:

Until we can find a president who can find a middle
ground and can get both sides to work as a team the future for the
country is not going to be a good one. What we're doing now is clearly
not working

The problem, I think, is two-fold:

First, the electoral system that we have encourages extremism.
Particularly now that there really aren't any liberal Republicans or
conservative Democrats. Any party is a big club, so to even get on the
primary ballot a candidate has to toe the party line -- then to get
elected they pretty much have to be the mostest. Add to this the effect
of our election laws which favors the top two parties, so third parties
can't get any kind of traction unless there's a big upheaval going on,
and in the mean time everything pulls toward the extremes.

Second, there's a whole lot of apathy going on -- and I'll be the first
to admit that I'm part of it. Am I out there going to the precinct
meetings, challenging the kooks? No, and apparently there aren't many
other moderates there either. Am I trying to find like-minded moderate
Republicans to get momentum going? No, and apparently there aren't many
other moderates doing that either. Am I identifying sensible
candidates, before the primaries, and either working for them or sending
them money -- no, and apparently neither is anyone else. So we have the
Republikooks, the Demokooks, the Liberterikooks, etc. -- and in the end
we elect politicians who pander to the kooks.

(That reminds me -- I need to write a letter to Westlund and see if he
has any like-minded friends who need campaign money.)

</RANT>

I wandered by my lathe today. All I could do was look at it, and wonder
what I was planning to turn between centers -- I can't even remember
what the project was (small engine construction, I think).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

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